Maximum Fit Magazine

Hi, I've been thinking about xp curves in the sense that in a lot of games, some character levels need too much xp and boredom or a sense of stagnation takes over. I've tried to come up with an ideal curve or even with a theory on how to create the ideal xp curve, I am came up with nada. Do you have deep thoughts, or _link_s to deep thoughts with regards to xp curves ? PS : Yes, I know some of you feel experience points are outdated or even a bad mechanism, just ignore this thread in that case. I am sold on xp ;]

Hi, I've been thinking about xp curves in the sense that in a lot of games, some character levels need too much xp and boredom or a sense of stagnation takes over. I've tried to come up with an ideal curve or even with a theory on how to create the ideal xp curve, I am came up with nada. Do you have deep thoughts, or _link_s to deep thoughts with regards to xp curves ? PS : Yes, I know some of you feel experience points are outdated or even a bad mechanism, just ignore this thread in that case. I am sold on xp ;] I don't fully understand what you mean by a perfect experience curve ... Do you refer to the varying rate at which the PC gains experience? To the number of experience points that come from killing the same monster when the PC is on different XP levels? Or maybe diminishing the number of XP points the PC might get from killing the same kind of monster repeatedly? Setting experience thresholds to mark exactly WHEN the PC advances one level? Please be more specific. I would happily spit out my thoughts about experience and the way/rate it should increase, but... well, I just don't feel like writing something that in the end might not be what you're looking for... Mingos.

Hi, I've been thinking about xp curves in the sense that in a lot of games, some character levels need too much xp and boredom or a sense of stagnation takes over. I've tried to come up with an ideal curve or even with a theory on how to create the ideal xp curve, I am came up with nada. Do you have deep thoughts, or _link_s to deep thoughts with regards to xp curves ? PS : Yes, I know some of you feel experience points are outdated or even a bad mechanism, just ignore this thread in that case. I am sold on xp ;] My (admittedly very limited) experience with coming up with a progression curve has illustrated the difficulty in coming up with a smooth, non-stagnant, non-runaway leveling curve. First, you need to consider how you are going to award experience before anything else. How much is a kill of a certain level worth? Is this number a static, unchanging reward?? Or (as I found out) should this number change relative to the level of the attacker vs the monster. I would HIGHLY suggest the second case. Otherwise, a p_layer_ can simply farm lower levels to progress, and end up overleveled against the challenges he eventually will face. I would suggest you come up with your experience curve as an 'optimum' progression - meaning you award X experience for a kill of a monster at level Y when the p_layer_ is also at level Y. A p_layer_ of higher level should get a smaller percentage, eventually reaching 0 for trivial monsters, and conversely should get a bonus for killing monsters more powerful than himself. The second step is considerably easier, all thing considered. Once you have the 'optimal' experience reward rate set, simply figure out how many creatures you feel that the p_layer_ should defeat in order to be eligible for the next level, and then multiply it times this experience rate. This number should not be static - higher levels should require more kills to advance. Create a second function to determine how many monsters you need to kill each level. Finally, combine these 2 curves. It will look something like this: P_layer_ Level     Exp for even monster     Kills needed to advance*      =       Experience needed to level 1                         1 10                                     10 2                         2 20                                     40 3                         3 30                                     90 4                         4 40                                    160 5                         5 50                                    250 etc * killing different level monsters awards exp at (_base_ Exp Reward - (P_layer_ Level-Monster Level)) This should give you a '_base_' curve. After that, it's a matter of playtesting. Do the levels feel like they are coming too fast or slow?? Adjust the needed exp accordingly. You can also make the curve much steeper or shallower. The above example is a simple slope of 1, but you could greatly change this by offering 2x as much exp for an even level curve, and increase the penalty for killing lower level monsters. Hope this gives you a little bit of inspiration. There are other people here with a lot more experience, and they can provide a better answer (and hopefully will), but this represents what I puzzled out, and seems to work ok. I went through other curve structures, and ended up with usually a situation where you leveled incredibly fast at first, and then abyssmally slow afterwards - only by implementing the exp penalty was I able to smooth things out a bit.

Sorry, didn't consider the formatting on my table. Here it is better compressed A=P_layer_ Level B=Exp reward for even level kill C= Kills needed to advance a level* D=Experience needed to level A   B   C    D 1   1   10   10 2   2   20   40 3   3   30   90 4   4   40  160 5   5   50  250 etc * killing different level monsters awards exp at (_base_ Exp Reward - (P_layer_ Level-Monster Level))

Hi, I've been thinking about xp curves in the sense that in a lot of games, some character levels need too much xp and boredom or a sense of stagnation takes over. I've tried to come up with an ideal curve or even with a theory on how to create the ideal xp curve, I am came up with nada. Do you have deep thoughts, or _link_s to deep thoughts with regards to xp curves ? PS : Yes, I know some of you feel experience points are outdated or even a bad mechanism, just ignore this thread in that case. I am sold on xp ;] My (admittedly very limited) experience with coming up with a progression curve has illustrated the difficulty in coming up with a smooth, non-stagnant, non-runaway leveling curve. First, you need to consider how you are going to award experience before anything else. How much is a kill of a certain level worth? Is this number a static, unchanging reward?? Or (as I found out) should this number change relative to the level of the attacker vs the monster. I would HIGHLY suggest the second case. Otherwise, a p_layer_ can simply farm lower levels to progress, and end up overleveled against the challenges he eventually will face. I would suggest you come up with your experience curve as an 'optimum' progression - meaning you award X experience for a kill of a monster at level Y when the p_layer_ is also at level Y. A p_layer_ of higher level should get a smaller percentage, eventually reaching 0 for trivial monsters, and conversely should get a bonus for killing monsters more powerful than himself. The second step is considerably easier, all thing considered. Once you have the 'optimal' experience reward rate set, simply figure out how many creatures you feel that the p_layer_ should defeat in order to be eligible for the next level, and then multiply it times this experience rate. This number should not be static - higher levels should require more kills to advance. Create a second function to determine how many monsters you need to kill each level. Finally, combine these 2 curves. It will look something like this: P_layer_ Level     Exp for even monster     Kills needed to advance*      =       Experience needed to level 1                         1 10                                     10 2                         2 20                                     40 3                         3 30                                     90 4                         4 40                                    160 5                         5 50                                    250 etc * killing different level monsters awards exp at (_base_ Exp Reward - (P_layer_ Level-Monster Level)) This should give you a '_base_' curve. After that, it's a matter of playtesting. Do the levels feel like they are coming too fast or slow?? Adjust the needed exp accordingly. You can also make the curve much steeper or shallower. The above example is a simple slope of 1, but you could greatly change this by offering 2x as much exp for an even level curve, and increase the penalty for killing lower level monsters. Hope this gives you a little bit of inspiration. There are other people here with a lot more experience, and they can provide a better answer (and hopefully will), but this represents what I puzzled out, and seems to work ok. I went through other curve structures, and ended up with usually a situation where you leveled incredibly fast at first, and then abyssmally slow afterwards - only by implementing the exp penalty was I able to smooth things out a bit. Interesting thoughts. I was planning a different approach, although I haven't had a chance to test it, so it may need balancing. Still, I'm quite fond of the Neverwinter Nights way of dealing with this. Monsters are clones, i.e. they are identical and are worth identical number of XP. The number of XP actually gained depends on the PC's level. The PC levels up at regular intervals (1000, 3000, 6000, 10000, 15000, 21000, etc. - I guess you get the picture). It was quite balanced in that game. The question is how you reward the PC when s/he levels up. A steady amount of HP/PP? A fixed number of skill increases? Special powers? If you beef the PC up slowly, you can let him advance quickly and be ready for the boss fight at, say, XP level 100. On the other hand, if you bestow great powers upon him/her, you can allow slow XP progress... Dunno which way is perfect (I don't even know what perfection is), but I have a final thought. Use any way that pops to your mind, just be sure to make it easily modifiable later. After it's implemented, test heavily to find the most balanced option. I'm pretty convinced it'll be different in each RL, so there's no universally perfect XP curve... Mingos.

Hi, I've been thinking about xp curves in the sense that in a lot of games, some character levels need too much xp and boredom or a sense of stagnation takes over. I've tried to come up with an ideal curve or even with a theory on how to create the ideal xp curve, I am came up with nada. Do you have deep thoughts, or _link_s to deep thoughts with regards to xp curves ? PS : Yes, I know some of you feel experience points are outdated or even a bad mechanism, just ignore this thread in that case. I am sold on xp ;] My (admittedly very limited) experience with coming up with a progression curve has illustrated the difficulty in coming up with a smooth, non-stagnant, non-runaway leveling curve. First, you need to consider how you are going to award experience before anything else. How much is a kill of a certain level worth? Is this number a static, unchanging reward?? Or (as I found out) should this number change relative to the level of the attacker vs the monster. I would HIGHLY suggest the second case. Otherwise, a p_layer_ can simply farm lower levels to progress, and end up overleveled against the challenges he eventually will face. I would suggest you come up with your experience curve as an 'optimum' progression - meaning you award X experience for a kill of a monster at level Y when the p_layer_ is also at level Y. A p_layer_ of higher level should get a smaller percentage, eventually reaching 0 for trivial monsters, and conversely should get a bonus for killing monsters more powerful than himself. The second step is considerably easier, all thing considered. Once you have the 'optimal' experience reward rate set, simply figure out how many creatures you feel that the p_layer_ should defeat in order to be eligible for the next level, and then multiply it times this experience rate. This number should not be static - higher levels should require more kills to advance. Create a second function to determine how many monsters you need to kill each level. Finally, combine these 2 curves. It will look something like this: P_layer_ Level     Exp for even monster     Kills needed to advance*      =       Experience needed to level 1                         1 10                                     10 2                         2 20                                     40 3                         3 30                                     90 4                         4 40                                    160 5                         5 50                                    250 etc * killing different level monsters awards exp at (_base_ Exp Reward - (P_layer_ Level-Monster Level)) This should give you a '_base_' curve. After that, it's a matter of playtesting. Do the levels feel like they are coming too fast or slow?? Adjust the needed exp accordingly. You can also make the curve much steeper or shallower. The above example is a simple slope of 1, but you could greatly change this by offering 2x as much exp for an even level curve, and increase the penalty for killing lower level monsters. Hope this gives you a little bit of inspiration. There are other people here with a lot more experience, and they can provide a better answer (and hopefully will), but this represents what I puzzled out, and seems to work ok. I went through other curve structures, and ended up with usually a situation where you leveled incredibly fast at first, and then abyssmally slow afterwards - only by implementing the exp penalty was I able to smooth things out a bit. Interesting thoughts. I was planning a different approach, although I haven't had a chance to test it, so it may need balancing. Still, I'm quite fond of the Neverwinter Nights way of dealing with this. Monsters are clones, i.e. they are identical and are worth identical number of XP. The number of XP actually gained depends on the PC's level. The PC levels up at regular intervals (1000, 3000, 6000, 10000, 15000, 21000, etc. - I guess you get the picture). It was quite balanced in that game. The question is how you reward the PC when s/he levels up. A steady amount of HP/PP? A fixed number of skill increases? Special powers? If you beef the PC up slowly, you can let him advance quickly and be ready for the boss fight at, say, XP level 100. On the other hand, if you bestow great powers upon him/her, you can allow slow XP progress... Dunno which way is perfect (I don't even know what perfection is), but I have a final thought. Use any way that pops to your mind, just be sure to make it easily modifiable later. After it's implemented, test heavily to find the most balanced option. I'm pretty convinced it'll be different in each RL, so there's no universally perfect XP curve... Mingos.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ooohhh....I like that idea, too. Gives you MUCH tighter control over the exact rate at which the p_layer_ levels. My only question would be what stops the p_layer_ from farming lower level monsters, assuming the exp reward is always the same? Of course, with a predetermined, static number of monsters, this is not an issue at all. Very interesting.... Must consider